Stakepool Fees

Discussion in 'PoS Pools' started by Dyrk, May 21, 2016.

  1. 2017/12/15 - Decred v1.1.2 released! → Release Notes  → Downloads
?

Stakepool fees you are ready to pay

  1. 1%

    12 vote(s)
    33.3%
  2. 2% - 5%

    10 vote(s)
    27.8%
  3. 5% - 7.5%

    6 vote(s)
    16.7%
  4. 7.5%

    3 vote(s)
    8.3%
  5. 7.5% - 10%

    2 vote(s)
    5.6%
  6. 10%

    1 vote(s)
    2.8%
  7. 10% - 25%

    2 vote(s)
    5.6%
  8. 25%

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Dyrk

    Dyrk Sr. Member
    Developer

    Jan 7, 2016
    518
    376
    Male
    Wonderland
    Hey guys,

    please vote which stakepool fees you feel comfortable to pay.
    Please note, that you are paying fees from your reward.

    So in PoW pool if you pay 1% fee:
    18 DCR * 0.01 = 0.18 DCR fee

    In PoS pool if you pay 10% fee:
    1.8 DCR * 0.1 = 0.18 DCR fee
     
    drunkenmugsy and chappjc like this.
  2. Ayush

    Ayush Full Member
    Advocate (Facebook)

    Jan 9, 2016
    512
    100
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    Sadly no one voting.
    Do u think voting here will have any effect on the original fees?
     
  3. Dyrk

    Dyrk Sr. Member
    Developer

    Jan 7, 2016
    518
    376
    Male
    Wonderland
    @Ayush me and Diego are going to launch Dcrstats Stakepool this weekend or on Monday. So of course we can look up to community opinion and set up reasonable fees for the best stakepool in the world.
     
    Ayush likes this.
  4. nikos1978

    nikos1978 New Member

    Feb 17, 2016
    110
    3
    Male
    I want no fees at pool
     
  5. Shadowlance

    Shadowlance Full Member

    Jan 9, 2016
    220
    155
    Male
    This will simply not happen. It's costing us to run the infrastructure for voting. With multiple distributed wallets you're looking at a minimum of 5 separate VPS instances (or physical machines) so it's going to cost 50-70 USD/month just to keep the pool online and redundant (you want multiple wallets in case one or two go down). The idea of fees is to help compensate admins for the cost of running the pool. That doesn't even include the time people spend setting up and administering the pools, which is generally done voluntarily.

    If you really want no fees I suggest you set up your own solo wallet.
     
  6. Ayush

    Ayush Full Member
    Advocate (Facebook)

    Jan 9, 2016
    512
    100
    Male
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    Dude think about the pool operators too.
    No one does anything for free.
    Will u donate ur money to others? I don't think so.
    So think from others point of view too.


    True.
    100% correct. I agree with u.
     
  7. Ayush

    Ayush Full Member
    Advocate (Facebook)

    Jan 9, 2016
    512
    100
    Male
    .
    .
    And solo wallet also requires inputs.

    Initial knowledge.
    Maintenance.

    Always on hardware.
    Electricity.
    Internet connection.

    So solo mining is actually costly in some places. @nikos1978
     
  8. Ayush

    Ayush Full Member
    Advocate (Facebook)

    Jan 9, 2016
    512
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    Male
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    .
    Another thing! 1 small typo. 1.8 DCR * 0.01 = 0.018 DCR fee.

    It actually got me all confused at first!
     
  9. Dyrk

    Dyrk Sr. Member
    Developer

    Jan 7, 2016
    518
    376
    Male
    Wonderland
    I was talking about 10% fee for a stakepool, so multiplier 0.1 is correct.
    1% PoW fee = 10% PoS fee
    PoW miner receive 60% of block subsidy, while PoS-miner 6% of block subsidy.
     
    ClokworkGremlin likes this.
  10. Ayush

    Ayush Full Member
    Advocate (Facebook)

    Jan 9, 2016
    512
    100
    Male
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    Confusing.

    Edit.- Oh wait. I am sorta getting it.
     
  11. ceejep

    ceejep Sr. Member
    Developer

    Dec 14, 2015
    192
    220
    It's important to remember that a PoW requires you to operate hardware, which has an outlay cost for the hardware and a cost for electricity to keep running. A PoS, by contrast, just generates coins without requiring you to do anything.
     
    woot and Tivra like this.
  12. Tivra

    Tivra Member
    Advocate (BitcoinTalk)

    Dec 30, 2015
    120
    60
    Europe
    Will the original PoS stake pool hosted on decred.org go offline once the other pools are running?
    Cause that has no fee AFAIK. Will it stay like that, or will it also implement a fee?
     
  13. Vanputlei

    Vanputlei Jr. Member
    Translator (Nederlands)

    Jan 12, 2016
    69
    36
    Male
    Belgium
    The Company Zero pool will stop accepting new tickets as of Friday, June 3rd 2016. All tickets will be voted until the total of live tickets reaches 0. Please find another pool to use.
     
    Tivra likes this.
  14. woot

    woot New Member
    Pool Operator (PoS)

    Jan 19, 2016
    55
    24
    Male
    I'll add in my 2 cents here... First, I'm assuming @nikos1978 is trolling with his no fees comment, don't feed the trolls. However, even 1-2% fee is not feasible to do the service right (at today's DCR pricing). Is it possible that someone can offer it? Sure. Someone can stick the software on a single cheapest vps out there or their home machine, offer no support, no redundancy, don't investigate any logs or issues, and take the service down unceremoniously if DCR drops really low since they will lose money.

    I'll also mention here that I absolutely do not believe any of the stakepool operators participating in the RFP are like this. Of everyone I've met, they all have shown expertise and commitment. However, once the stakepool source code is open, I can almost guarantee you'll find folks doing that

    From a stakepool operator perspective, hosting costs dollars, not DCR. We also need to be willing to stay open until all tickets are voted on, so there is significant lag time on a clean shutdown if an operator decides to do so. When DCR fluctuates, we're the ones who have to fill the gaps. Add in that rewards go down over time, we're capped to 5% of the total stake, and that we'll probably not get the maximum number of votes estimated in the RFP... there is a good amount of risk to running a good stakepool.

    Lowering fees is a lot easier than increasing them. When a fee is lowered, folks that haven't had a chance to reconfigure don't have an issue. When a fee is raised, it will force the reconfiguration to be required by all participants (and likely cause a lot of support requests).

    If you're expecting 0-2% at today's DCR value, there likely won't be any good stakepool operators willing to do it. The biggest change on fee calculation will be DCR value, then removal of the 5% cap (although everyone joining a single pool is not good for the currency). I fully expect to be able to lower fees on my pool at some point, and I'll be very happy to do so just as long as I don't reduce the quality of service.
     
  15. .m.

    .m. New Member

    Jan 23, 2016
    55
    10
    After being rewarded with 2000 USD that sounds a bit greedy to me, but as once was said, the greed is good.
    As there were offers for 0% PoW pool, I am pretty sure fees lower than 2% can be offered without compromising the security neither the reliability.
     
  16. Ayush

    Ayush Full Member
    Advocate (Facebook)

    Jan 9, 2016
    512
    100
    Male
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    Woah. U got 2000 USD. Kool!
    Then maybe the fees can be lowered I guess.
     
  17. Lee Sharp

    Lee Sharp Sr. Member

    Dec 28, 2015
    308
    217
    Male
    Independent Consultant
    Houston, Texas
    Based on what? Our pool is a team of three people. I can not say with any certainty how much the other two have been working, but I have put well over 50 hours in. As a consultant, I bill on average $75 an hour. (I work through some consulting firms, and they get a discount for volume) So based on my rate, I have LOST $1750 if I got all of the money. (But I only get a third, so just over $3 grand) I also have three HP DL360 rackmount servers invested, and those do come free either.

    So seeing as how I am already down the price of a fun used car, who is being greedy again?

    That said, my work has been about setting this up with very good security and system management practices, so our ongoing costs are extraordinarily low. We will also be offering other value added services going forward, and that will help. Also, it is kinda cool setting all this up, so I don't really count my time spent as "lost." :) But calling us greedy for wanting to be paid for work is a bit insulting.
     
  18. ClokworkGremlin

    ClokworkGremlin Sr. Member

    Jan 10, 2016
    535
    381
    Male
    Whatever I want.
    #18 ClokworkGremlin, May 23, 2016
    Last edited: May 23, 2016
    Let's do some estimates with actual numbers, shall we?

    Current ticket price balance(as of this post) is: 640,281 DCR.
    Current return rate (assuming 15DCR ticket price and 1.8 DCR vote reward) is 12%, or 76,833 DCR from the present pool balance.
    Each pool is limited (initially) to 5% or 1/20 of the estimated pool total, for an expected average reward of 3,841 DCR per pool, from which the fees will be extracted.

    10% would be 384 DCR, 1% would be 38 DCR. 2% would be about 80DCR. This still needs to be split among the pool and operators. For reference, the 10% value is less than I make solo, and I know most PoS voters are earning quite a bit more than me.

    A little insider knowledge tells me that some of the pool operators are looking at monthly operating costs around $100 USD and up, so that's a minimumof 2%, and then the operators are getting basically nothing for their efforts.

    [edit]pool numbers from DCRStats.
     
    woot and Lee Sharp like this.
  19. drunkenmugsy

    drunkenmugsy Sr. Member
    Advocate (Reddit)

    Dec 28, 2015
    405
    218
    Male
    What it comes down to is what I have said before. This is a market. You are free to do as you please in a free market. You can either use a pool or not. Your choice. You will not see 1% PoS pool fees until the price of DCR gets much higher. Think about 10 times higher or more. 5-7% is not unreasonable to charge in the eyes (and real $$ costs) of stakepool Ops. When you take into account the exchange fees (dcr -> btc -> $) for Ops to get real $ for DCR it is even less than 5-7%

    If 5-7% is too much for you then your choice is simple - do not use a pool. You are not required to use a pool or pay 5-7% pool fees.
     
  20. nikos1978

    nikos1978 New Member

    Feb 17, 2016
    110
    3
    Male
    I think fees must be 2-3 % not more
     

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